A few days after meeting my pastor to explain why we (my wife and myself) have decided to leave the church he is pastoring (senior pastor) and in which we have served for a period of 20 years, we have addressed him a very long letter (He never answered or replied to our letter or called us to discuss about it). This assembly (in Gatineau, Qc.), under his leadership, has decided to take a new orientation based on "dominionism" principally advocated by C. Peter Wagner and his collaborators. Here is the letter we have written to him:
Hello ... (The name of the pastor is erased)
Following our meeting last Friday at your office, let us share with you certain facts and comments on our part concerning some declarations of C. Peter Wagner while he was interviewed on the radio program "Fresh Air" (October 3, 2011). Some of his and also your declarations concern, in a certain way, the subject of our meeting, which was to discuss with you why we wanted to leave the church.
You declared at church in June 24, 2012, one week after the first Apostolic Conference organized by your church (We were out of town that week but we listened to the audio tapes a few days ago) that your main guest, C. Peter Wagner is your spiritual father:
First of all, last Friday (February the 8th, 2013) at our meeting, when you told me that your spiritual alignment with Wagner did not force you to believe or to apply all of his teachings, I believed that it was reasonable. But after hearing your sermon (on video) of the 24th of June 2012 titled "Alignment" we understood that your alignment with C. Peter Wagner was much more serious than what you let it see or believe. Here is one of your words you spoke that day about your relation with C. Peter Wagner (June 24, 2012):(translation from french) "We went further than just align with an apostle. We called him Papa (Dad) and he received (accepted) that also." When someone is considered and called publicly spiritual Dad, that person has necessarily a certain measure of authority on those who have qualified him as such. If not, it is a vain word pronounced to impress...Also, when it is said that someone is aligned in a apostolic manner with another person, we understand, in the same way as C. Peter Wagner himself have said, that they collaborate very closely. Indeed, Wagner was speaking with this same understanding at his interview on the radio program "Fresh air" when he was talking about Cindy Jacobs and John Benefiel: "Well, I must say that both John Benefiel and Cindy Jacobs are very close to me. They're both aligned apostolically with me. So I am part of what they do, and they are part of what I do". In this declaration, it is as if Wagner affirms that they (Benefiel and Jacobs) are in him (Wagner) and that he is in them in a similar way Jesus talks about His relation with the Father (John 14:10 and John 10:30) (and also in John 5:19 mostly because Wagner said: "so I am part of what they do, and they are part of what I do...")
We can see, indeed, that all you have put in place at church (without really explaining your real intents to the assembly...) beginning two years ago, demonstrates you are fully aligned (hand in hand, so to speak) with Wagner's recommendations: First, you created, at church, following Wagner's recommendations, a team of intercessors (it's not bad as such) and promoted for every city or territory the birth of a House of prayer (this is debatable); after that, you developed a team of prophets (this is also debatable) and finally, you proceeded in changing our traditional way of operating a local church (governance) to a new style called "Third way" or "New wine-skin" or "New Apostolic Reformation" (this is highly disputable).
You also said to the assembly, Sunday the 17th of June 2012, the day after the end of the first apostolic conference in Gatineau, Qc. (C. Peter Wagner was present): "Let's welcome our Papa (Dad)" designating C. Peter Wagner. We would like to tell you that hearing this created in us some frustration. In fact, C. Peter Wagner might be a spiritual Dad for many, but he is certainly not our's. If we refer to Matthew 23:9 ("And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."), we should never consider or call someone our spiritual "Dad" or, even worse, accept to be called or spoken of being such.
Secondly, when I told you that Wagner had elaborated partly his theory on spiritual warfare (Wagner calls it "Strategic level Spiritual warfare") by consulting sources originating from the occult world, for instance, by interviewing persons which had practised occultism or by interrogating demons which were being exorcised, you did not seem to believe me. So to support my sayings, here are some declarations of C. Peter Wagner concerning this subject (The following text in red colour was written by Wagner in his book entitled "Spiritual Warfare Strategy") (The page numbers of Spiritual Warfare Strategy refer to the ibook edition of his 1996 book with Destiny Image Publisher.)
“about the
reality of the spirit world in which they have gained considerable experience we can indeed
get valid information form the world of darkness.”
“These
non-Christian sources, of course, must be evaluated with much prayerful
scrutiny and caution. Still, we must keep in mind that the spirit world to
which they are dedicated is a real world, not the figment of their ‘heathen’
imaginations. Therefore, some things about it can be accurately known. A
particularly important source of credible information may be those occult
practitioners who have been born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.” (SWS,
61)
“Some
have raised the question of whether we can receive valid information from
demons themselves. Demons are portrayed in the Bible as beings who have
personalities and intelligence, and as beings who can and do speak. They are
also portrayed as deceivers. It must therefore be concluded that they do
possess some valid information. The question then becomes, ‘Does any of this
valid information get communicated to us when they speak?’ Obviously so, but
discernment is needed to process whatever we hear from them in order to
separate truth from falsehood. I once heard Ed Murphy point out this very
interesting fact: Every time the words of a demon are recorded in the New
Testament, they speak the truth! Is this not biblical evidence that we can
indeed get valid information from the world of darkness?” (SWS, 61)
The last argument presented by Wagner in his book to convince us that it is alright to use information originating from the occult world is "Every time the words of a demon are recorded in the New Testament, they speak the truth! Is this not biblical evidence that we can indeed get valid information from the world of darkness?” (SWS, 61). We think it should be added some touches (corrections or nuances) to this last affirmation: Satan himself lied to Jesus when he tried to tempt him in the desert because he pretended (Read Luke 4:6 and Matthew 4:9) that all the kingdoms of the world, it's power and glory were delivered to him. It's not what the verse in Deuteronomy 10:14 declares: "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is." Other verses affirm the same idea (Exodus 19:5; Psalms 82:8 ISV; 89:11).
The unclean spirit or devil which was proclaiming that Jesus is the Holy One of God (Luke 4:34; Mark 1:24) was saying the truth, indeed, but Jesus did not want him to declare it at this precise moment (Luke 4:35). So this unclean spirit did it opposing the will of God.
The spirit of divination was saying the truth about the apostle Paul and collaborators (Acts 16:16-19), but it's purpose was to convince the crowd that the women possessed great capacities of divination. That did not really glorify God.
The only example (there are not plenty, contrary to what Wagner was pretending in his interview at the radio program "Fresh Air) where we find that Jesus obtained the truth by interrogating a demon was with the one possessing the man of Gadarenes. Jesus asked his name (Luke 8:30; Mark 5:9). The unclean spirit answered 'Legion' because many devils were entered into him. Saying "Every time the words of a demon are recorded in the New Testament, they speak the truth!" is not a convincing argument to promote the practice of interrogating devils during an exorcism to learn what?...To learn to chase them out...
The only trustable (credible) information is the Word of God. Out of it, we cannot trust what a devil would say because he is a liar, like Satan. We believe Wagner is erring on this point.
Like I tried to explain to you last Friday,when our belt of truth is damaged by false doctrines, the christian armour is not fixed solidly on us. It makes us an easy prey to the attacks of the enemy.
_______________________________________
We also encourage you to listen to the radio program "Fresh Air (October 3, 2011). The title is "A leading figure in the New Apostolic Reformation". It's Terry Gross who is interviewing C. Peter Wagner. Here is the link: < A Leading Figure In The New Apostolic Reformation . Listening to this interview (you can also choose to read the transcript) you will discover all kinds of affirmations of C. Peter Wagner that don't stand the road...
Here are some of his affirmations:
1- He (C. Peter Wagner) supports the idea that if Japan actually, in 2013, lives all these economic troubles and the disaster of the tsunami, it is because of what the emperor of the country did in November 1990 in one of the ceremonies ( Daijosai ceremony) of his coronation: He would have had, in some way..., a sexual intercourse with the sun goddess (important goddess related to the Shintoist religion). The economic troubles of Japan did not start in 1990 like Wagner pretends. The experts on economy, as for example Benjamin Powell ("Les Causes de la Récession Japonaise", http://www.causes-crise-economique.com/japon.htm , by Benjamin Powell, November 2002) , say that these troubles started near the end of 1985 (not in 1990) by an exaggeration of the rise of the exchange value of the Yen. This was followed up by a speculative bubble after the Bank of Japan had lowered the interest rates. During this same period of time, even Canada and the United States had serious financial problems. Do we have to conclude then that our own political leaders were also fornicating with a goddess? Do you (pastor) realize what was declaring C. Peter Wagner? Still concerning this same subject, Wagner declared in the same interview:"I'm speaking for myself and a fairly substantial group of people, with whom I closely associate." Take time to listen to the interview (or read the transcript). C. Peter Wagner, a man of such stature, like you pretend him to be in your sermon of the 24th of June 2012, making such declarations on a radio program and speaking on behalf of a substantial group of people, all of them close collaborators ! While we are at it, is it a similar cause that led to the attack of the Twin Towers in September 11, 2001 ? Is it a similar cause that led to the worldwide economic crash of 2008 ? Is it a similar cause, to laugh about it, instead of crying over it, that led, year over year the Montreal Canadians hockey club to loose the Stanley Cup ...? How can Wagner sustain and bring proofs to such declarations? It is a mere allegation, non-provable and it is taking advantage of the credulity of people.
2- He (Wagner) also said in his interview that the governor of the state of Texas, Rick Perry, was not probably informed that Alice Patterson was involved in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movement when he asked her to organize the prayer rally called 'The Response', held in August 2011. This governor is part of the Republican party (In Canada, we can compare this political party to the Conservatives) which is opposing Obama's Democrats. Alice Patterson is a recognized apostle of the NAR. She wrote in a book that the Democratic Party was demonized. Wagner admits he knows her well ("I know Alice well"). He knows her well enough to call her 'Alice'. He said in the interview that he did not personally endorse her saying concerning the Democratic party being demonized. Nevertheless, immediately after that, Wagner hastened to add: "I believe there's a lot of demonic control over Congress in general that needs to be dispersed".
Just after, he talked about Chuck Pierce, a prophet, himself a very good friend of Wagner. He said that Pierce was at the origin of this affirmation (that the Democratic party was demonized) while he was giving a prophecy. He continued saying that Pierce's prophecies where sometimes kind of 'wrongly' interpreted: "Chuck, because he's a prophet, he speaks in language that different people interpret differently". If it is true that Alice Patterson is an apostle by the standards of Wagner and the NAR (One characteristic of apostles, by Wagner's standards, is to be gifted by the Holy Spirit in the interpretation of prophecies), she lacks anointment to interpret prophecies.
Finally, this rally of prayer for the American nation (The Response) held in August 2011 which was tainted with an opposition to the election of Obama and the rally that was held in Washington D.C. the 3rd October 2011 (organized by 2 important members of NAR, John Benefiel, an apostle, and Cindy Jacobs, a prophetess, both very close collaborators of Wagner:"Well, I must say that both John Benefiel and Cindy Jacobs are very close to me. They're both aligned apostolically with me. So I am part of what they do, and they are part of what I do"), did not succeed in stopping the 'demonized' Democratic party of Obama, in spite of all the prayer rallies and the attempts to submit the territorial demons, to win the American elections in November 2011. We have the impression that Wagner and his close collaborators engage themselves in battles they can't win in spite of all their prophecies.
3- On another subject during the interview, Terry Gross asked:"Would it be fair to say that you see homosexuality as a satanic expression?" Here is C. Peter Wagner's answer:"Well, I don't think - let me put it a different way. I think - I do not think homosexuality is the - is the will of God. I don't think it's God's plan A." What we can observe in his answer is that Wagner is an excellent "figure skater". He could have said simply that homosexuality is a sin (1 Cor. 6:9), but he chose to say that he did not think that it's God's plan A. He lost a wonderful opportunity to denounce that sin. Instead of saying "I don't think", he should have said that the Bible denounces clearly homosexuality.
More on the subject of homosexuality: Further in the interview, Terry Gross mentioned the case of Ted Haggard, an ex- and close collaborator of C. Peter Wagner and co-founder with him of the World Prayer Center, based in Colorado Spring. Ted Haggard was forced to confess, some years after the beginning of this prayer centre, that he had sex with men and that he used drugs. Terry Gross asked C. Peter Wagner how this confession had affected him. He answered that he didn't think he had recovered yet. He added also a little later on that it was a devastating blow to him. However, he continued explaining that a few years before the public disclosure, Cindy Jacobs, a prophetess very close to him had exposed Ted Haggard in the presence of this man's wife and Chuck Pierce on this subject (homosexuality) pretending that God had showed her. Cindy Jacobs informed Wagner after this exposure. So Wagner knew or suspected that Haggard was an homosexual a few years before it was revealed to the public and, in spite of that, did not react. How come, then, Wagner pretended in his interview that it was a devastating blow to him? Ted Haggard, after this confrontation with Cindy Jacobs, was able to go on his usual activities within the World Prayer Center without been under surveillance. Since he was informed by Cindy Jacobs, it is quite clear, in this situation, that Wagner lacked discernment and vigilance or that he did not believe or trust his prophetess, close friend to him.
Adding on that, while Terry Gross came up to the subject of Dominionism and theocracy, Wagner was pointing up that the desire of Dominionists was to see all the spheres of society infiltrated by newborn Christians in order to occupy key functions, the premise being that society would then change for the best. He said: "So we would like to see the blessings of heaven characterize our society. We would like to see a city characterized by justice and peace and righteousness and equality and prosperity and health and honesty, and almost everybody agrees with us. These are the values of heaven. We don't want racism. We don't want poverty or divorce or corruption or child abuse or crime. That is our..." At this point of the interview, Terry Gross interrupted Wagner to suggest him to add to this list homosexuality. Wagner replied that he had not placed this problem on his list. Just a bit after that, he said: " I just think there are more important things right now." We believe, again, that the way he answered these though questions, Wagner could have won an "international championship in figure skating"...How can C. Peter Wagner ignore such a 'plague' when all the spheres of society are invaded by this sin?
4-When Terry Gross asked C. Peter Wagner if it was true that some members of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) feel that the growth of Islam in the United States is dangerous and that mosques are demonic or that demons dwell within, his answer was: "Well, first of all, I wouldn't want to give the impression that the NAR denies the plurality of religion. We honour each religion in a society like our American society. However, we feel that - believe in Jesus, and Jesus has told us to go and preach the kingdom of God, and part of that is the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. And people who do not believe in Jesus Christ are not candidates for the kingdom of heaven. So our desire is that everybody be a candidate". These words will never convince an Islam believer or a believer of any other religion that NAR partisans honour each religion in society mostly because earlier in the interview Wagner answered " yes it is" to this question of Terry Gross: "...So your larger goal here (is) to get Japan to turn away not only from the Shinto faith, but also from Buddhism and follow Jesus-Christ?" While he says one time during the interview that he honours all religions, he says earlier in the same interview that he wants to get rid of Shinto faith and Buddhism in Japan. Again, Wagner is "figure skating".
5- On Terry Gross's demand to give more precisions about his definition of an apostle, Wagner answered: "The Bible teaches that apostles - related to prophets and also teachers - should form the basis of the government of the church". In this declaration Wagner was making kind of a sleight of hand (a trick). In reality (he is talking about it in many of his writings), he is referring to a passage in the letter to the Ephesians (Ephesians 2:20; read also 1 Corinthians 12:28) which is stating that us, Christians, as forming altogether the Church of God, "are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." The problem here is that Wagner is distorting this verse (Ephesians 2:20) because he is not using it in the appropriate context of the first years of Christianity. In these years, the apostles chosen by Christ himself (the 12 apostles, Judas being dead, but being replaced by Matthias) are the ones the writer of Ephesians, Paul, is referring to. Indeed, the foundation on which the Church as been established rests on the teachings of Jesus (the corner stone), first of all, and on those of his apostles and prophets of these special days. It doesn't rest on the teachings of the so-called auto-proclaimed apostles of today (Wagner auto-proclaimed himself as an apostle and he is naming other persons as apostles like you who is pastoring the church we are leaving). In other words, Wagner is using inappropriately this verse because he is substituting the real meaning of the word apostle in its context of Ephesians 2:20 (apostles chosen and instructed by Jesus himself in the first years of Christianity) to the definition of an apostle (auto-proclaimed or named by himself) he is advocating in our days.
Hedwin Hartill wrote in his book "Principles of Biblical Hermeneutics" page 79: " The Bible can be made to prove anything, but Not when studied in the light of the context".
In fact, when we look closely at Ephesians 2:20, we discover that it is not talking about the governance of the Church like Wagner seems to let us think. It talks rather about the edification (or construction) of the church. The governance or way to conduct (or run, or manage) of a local church should be done or applied by the elders (based on these verses: Acts 14:23; 1 Timothy 5:17; Titus 1:5; 1 Peter 5:1; 5:5) and not by a pseudo-apostolic team in the manner Wagner suggests it. There is a difference between apostles ('apostolos' in Greek) and elders ('presbuteros' in Greek), if not, Luke, in Acts 15:2 (in the last part of the verse) would not have written:
"...Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."
However, we can easily conceive that in the early days of Christianity an apostle could have occupied also, in the same local church, the function of an elder (1 Peter 5:1), but the responsibility of an elder was and is still pointing to the governance of a local church (see 1 Timothy 5:17) while the responsibility of an apostle, with the principal contribution of Jesus-Christ as the corner stone, was, but not today, pointing to the establishment of the foundation on which the edification of the Church would happen (see Ephesians 2:20). In other words, the foundation of the Church was perfectly completed (finished) 2000 years ago by Jesus-Christ, his apostles and prophets. There is no need to add on today like Wagner and collaborators try to make us believe.
On this same subject, during the interview, Wagner took advantage to hammer down the non biblical idea that the apostles (of the past and of our days) had received of God a bigger authority and superior gift or anointment than the other ministries named in Ephesians 4:11. His main argument (which was not explained during the interview, but can be seen in some of Wagner's books) is based on the verse 1 Corinthians 12:28 : "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." I would like to remind you that the word 'first' appearing in 1 Corinthians 12:28 comes from the Greek word 'protos'. This word does not have the meaning of priority or importance when it appears in 1 Corinthians 12:28; it is used for the enumeration of different particular items or persons without any connotation of priority or importance.
6- Concerning the Dominionism (theocracy) cherished by C. Peter Wagner, aiming to place in positions of influence new born Christians (well-meaning and thinking the way he is thinking) in all the spheres of society (Wagner divided society in seven groups called 'the seven mountains': Family, Education, Government, Business, Medias, Arts and Show-business), amounts to saying, indirectly, that society should be governed on biblical principles. Indeed, if a person is placed in a position of influence, does it not mean that he or she has the authority to take decisions so much so as to force the introduction of laws and rules established on biblical principals (please, understand that such laws or rules would not be bad as such)? The point here is that a society like that would be called by definition a theocracy. What Wagner is trying to introduce is disguised theocracy, even if during the interview he insisted in saying that it is not theocracy and that he didn't want that. Here, again, Wagner was figure skating energetically.
Chuck Pierce talks in similar terms when he declares on his website ('Glory of Zion International Ministries') at the subject heading 'What we believe' :" The kingdom of God is here now! The seven mountains of society are meant to be influenced and dominated by the Kingdom of God". Didn't Jesus declare in John 18:36 that his kingdom is not of this world ? Didn't he insisted, still in John 18:36, that his kingdom is not from hence? Jesus himself have not taken possession yet of his reign on earth (Revelation 11:17; 19:6); He (Jesus) will take possession of it only in his second coming after having battled the Beast, the kings or rulers of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army (Revelation 19:19).
7- Wagner said during the interview that prophecies should be judged by others (1 Corinthians 14:29). We agree on the principle. But the reel test to judge a prophecy is to wait and see if it happened. Many prophets associated to this movement (NAR) made mistakes in their 'predictions' (prophecies) even if the apostles of the NAR have judged it and approved it.(read Matthew 7:15-19)
8- One of the issues Terry Gross tackled during the interview with C. Peter Wagner is"spiritual mapping", a method for the identification and characterization of 'territorial demons'. Wagner and his followers pretend that these spiritual beings would have the power to stop or slow down all efforts to evangelize freely a city or a region or even a country. This method, combined with other methods of spiritual combat would permit, according to Wagner and his followers to neutralize and kick out of their sphere of influence these 'territorial demons'. This set of methods was baptized by Wagner as the 'Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare' (this term is not mentioned in the interview) (To learn more about 'spiritual mapping', we suggest to read in this same blog (Pépites d'or de la Parole de Dieu) the article on 'spiritual mapping' ('mapping spirituel' in French) published in November 28, 2012 and the article on 'spiritual combat' ('combat spirituel' in French) published in December 11, 2012.)
But what becomes confusing or not clear on the part of Wagner during this interview on this subject is this following declaration:
"Sometimes we don't believe we can completely get them (Wagner was speaking about the 'territorial demons') away a city, but we can reduce their power. We can bind them, and then we can move strongly with the Kingdom of God into the city."
It's like he is saying that the power of God is sometimes unable to kick out or neutralize completely an evil spirit. There are only two possibilities: we can or we cannot chase a demon. There is no half measure. Anyway, it is not our responsibility to confront 'territorial demons' in order to chase them out of a city or a region or a country. God can and will send his angels to do this work as he did when he sent the archangel Michael in Daniel 10:12-14 (Please read the article on 'spiritual combat' in this same blog). The only demons we have the responsibility to chase are those that dwell in individuals. Jesus gave us the authority to do that.
9- The return of Jesus and the end of times: In this part of the interview, Wagner admitted that he was not believing anymore to the 'rapture', neither to the 'tribulations'. He quotes a verse in the book of Acts to support his opinion:
" Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:19-21).
Wagner interprets this passage in this way: God is waiting for us, newborn Christians, to restore all things on earth before Christ's return. He will come back only on this condition. But, it is not really what theses verses are saying. Jesus is held up in heaven until the moment chosen by the Father. (Acts 1:7) for the restitution of all things, among others, the restitution of the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6; Isaiah 1:26; 14:1; 62:7; Jeremiah 31:4; 33:7,11; Ezekiel 37:14), of justice and peace and all lots of things. God have talked about it using many prophets. Now, note with attention what the verse 6 in Acts chapter one is saying:
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, will thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
We see clearly in this verse that it is Jesus himself that will restore all things. We are not the ones that have to do that. God have chosen the exact moment when this will happen by the powerful hand of Jesus. In the meantime, Jesus has to stay in heaven.
10- Concerning your sermon of June 24, 2012, it makes us shiver to see how much you (pastor) consider, even admire C. Peter Wagner, a man of such an international stature ... Are you really aware of what this man and his close collaborators (Chuck Pierce, Cindy Jacobs and many others) proclaim in their declarations and their writings on all the issues tackled in this letter and all that was published on this same blog beginning September 2012? We encourage you really to meditate all what we have written to you.
"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? (1 Corinthians 5:12)
